Monday, April 04, 2005

some more older posts from one of my other online journals.

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on Dr.David Noble (and then religion) 12/9/2003

after reading several summaries of one of his books, and one of his lectures... I think the guy has some very interesting ideas... and so far, the only real flaws I see are where he attempts to make ties to christianity. factually pretty much everything else I read seems right... but referring to "knowledge lost in eden", when supposedly it is precisely knowledge that we gained there by eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, whereby we gained the very knowledge of god himself. the only things we supposedly lost, were ignorance, the chance at eternal life through eating the fruit of the tree of eternal life, and thereby becoming gods ourselves, and a nice happy paradise to live in. heck, knowledge was the 1 thing we DID gain there, we lost everything ELSE. (supposedly) ;) it is just a fairytale after all.

anyway... you should read sometime the actual story in genesis about things such as the creation, and eden etc... the glaring fallacies alone in that one book of the bible should be enough to make ANY semi-intelligent person walk away from christianity for good, if not at least seriously reconsidering their beliefs and taking a quite unorthodox stance with their spiritual beliefs. the main point is that you can't have it both ways... you either have to admit that it's just a story, and not remotely literal (aside from being factually erroneous)... or you have to admit that it's wrong. either way, it's no longer a sound foundation for any belief system. because one way you have to admit that it's just a story, a fable of sorts, and therefor all the flaws, errors and inconsistancies should be overlooked as irrelevant to the moral of the story... or you take the stance of the fundamentalist orthodox belief that everything is word for word literally exactly what really happened. which is INSANE to honestly even TRY to claim anymore, as scientifically we've learned better since the bible was written. the animals that the bible claims god created first... weren't the first animals. they were just what animals the people who made up the stories in the bible knew at the time... we learned better in the centuries that followed... and yet people still try to insist that the bible is fact. that it is true down to every last word. how can you do that? or that it literally says that in the garden, god was walking around talking with the angels etc... and had to go looking for adam and eve after they ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil... and that when he found them, he had them kicked out because if they had gotten ahold of the fruit of the tree of eternal life, THEY WOULD BE EXACTLY LIKE HIM. the "man" got scared to lose his position of power, so like a jealous little kid, he kicked them out and had an angel with a flaming sword keep them from getting back in. now honestly kids.. do you really believe that god himself was chillin in the garden, and that two magical trees with magical fruit that made you smarter and gave you immortality were there... and it was a perfect paradise, with angels running around and naked people and the animals all living together in peaceful bliss... then god got mad that adam and eve might get to live forever just like him, because they ate the magic fruit from one of the magic trees, and might get the other one? so he has his boys give them the boot and guard the door with a giant flaming sword? WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? HAVE YOU NO COMMON SENSE!? it's not even an original story! the story of the tree and the snake and all that... predates christianity completely! christianity just adopted a lot of other previous religions stories as well as common myths and fables... and tied them together with enough historical fact such as places and dates later in the bible.. actual people who lived, ruled etc.. to make it believable to the people of the time. it's incredibly sad that otherwise intelligent adults cannot grasp the huge gap in logical thought that says while it's common sense that you can't magically bring people back from the dead (we're talking DEAD)... and that you can't walk on water... or make water into wine (not talking magic tricks)... we "know" that all of this stuff is just simply not real... and yet because we were taught that the bible is true... we believe all these things we KNOW aren't otherwise true? it's like taking your brain out of your head because christianity has no use for it. I honestly just cannot understand how people can be so terribly blind and stupid even when SHOWN the glaring faults in their thinking.

it's as simple as this... you can prove that the bible is WRONG about a lot of things, inconsistent, contradictory... plainly a fable in large part... and provably so. so with that said... the bible is the ONLY source of Christianity... it is supposedly the word of god (and infallible)... proof of itself (a silly concept in and of itself)... so how can you 100% believe in god if the very foundation of the single source of your "proof" is PROVABLY incorrect, flawed, outdated, wrong, contradictory... aside from being historical fiction?

christians literally have to force themselves to suspend their common sense and intelligence to maintain their belief. suspension of disbelief... and they have to do this at basically every single step of the way. to fight knowing too much, thinking too much... if it interferes with their safety blanket fantasy.

man learned long ago that lightning wasn't the result of the angry sky god throwing magic missiles down upon their heads... science luckily brought us far enough beyond that point that people finally accepted the reality of it. and while that is happening slowly to christianity, people are still holding on... trying to "reinterpret" the bible... ignore chunks of it... whatever they can... and they increasingly keep turning to the few things we haven't proven them wrong on... which isn't much more than "who created the universe.. if anyone at all?" and that's where they'll point to and say "see! there is gods work!"

as evolution (both micro and macro) has been proven (natural selection etc)... and we now know that animals did start out millions of years ago as single celled organisms and evolved from there... from the seas onto land... etc... christianity has been left with little choice but to attempt to adapt... and in the process ignore the bibles story of creation, treat it as a simple fable, or be left behind by factual reality as mankind continues to be enlightened. so they claim that "ok... evolution happened, but god made that first single cell! and he guided evolution! it was all his work!" although we now understand that chemicals naturally strive for the same conditions which make up single celled organisms etc.. simple proteins etc... for instance "mad deer" sickness... it isn't caused by a virus or anything "living" thing... it's just a protein... you can't treat it or kill it unless you physically destroy it with bleach or something like that because it's just a chemical. and yet it "reproduces" itself etc as though it were living... this is the same concept that gave rise to the first proteins in the ocean... complex proteins... a single cell... and so on and so forth. natural selection... if it doesn't work, it doesn't exist. the inefficient or weak fail and don't "reproduce", while the successful do and carry on those successful qualities through their "offspring". over literally hundreds of millions of years, this gives rise to some pretty complex organisms as you can see through any basic dinosaur book with a timeline in it.

no, the sky god didn't scoop up some magic clay in his magic garden and *poof* turn it into a man... then pull out his rib and *poof* magically make a woman. WE KNOW BETTER. USE YOUR HEAD.

anyway... enough for now. more later I'm sure.

16 comments:

Super Footwear Girl said...

If any one has "what it takes to hold an intellectual religious debate " with someone as small minded and doubtful as you Phreadom, it's Kellie. The fact that she chooses NOT to discuss it with you is to protect her own sanity.

If one refuses to accept truth and logic, the wise man would choose not to converse with such a fool. And one's personal beliefs are not a point of discussion. THOELOGIES and ZRELIGIONS are points for open debate, but only in the sense that one persons faith in the religion of belief in the theology is not the representation of that particular belief.

It would do you well to remember that and to show some kindness in your debates, rather than blind opinion and forceful ignorance.

:)

Phreadom said...

louise, before you talk anymore smack, why don't you try actually pointing out where I'm incorrect. otherwise you're not better than the pot calling the kettle black.

don't be so stupid as to call me blind and ignorant when you haven't shown me to be incorrect, only rude. there is a vast difference.

as for what you said about Kellie... I realize that she's trying to protect her sanity... but like I said to prince charming, just because she's weak and needs that fantasy, it doesn't make her right... and as much as you all might think me an ass for it, in the end I'm still the one who can back up what he believes in. it takes a stronger person to stand on their own in the face of reality then to live a fantasy because it's more comfortable.

I left those fairytales behind years ago... I don't need training wheels for my mind. :)

post again when you have something constructive to contribute to this conversation. admittedly those posts are around a year old, and I've learned a lot since then... but if you want to start a debate... pick something I said in those posts and try to disprove it. then we'll be getting somewhere.

oh, and for the record, a persons beliefs are completely up for discussion when they're an adult posting them on a public forum looking for attention. and when a person is wrong, they need to learn to deal with it, or defend why they believe they are right. or, like I said... they're just weak. and I think you can guess how I feel about weak people.

Kellie said...

Weak...at my lowest point I am far from weak--thank you very much.
Ok here is where I say "I have faith phreadom, and faith is "the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.." then you reply, "faith in what? some imaginary being made up to make people behave and feel better about themselves..."
then I will retaliate by telling you stories about all of the interesting spiritual things that I know are not just pretend and i will ask you to prove them wrong..
If some of this is hard to follow it is because I am anemic and have not eaten yet.
Well phreadom, after this I will only post twice so why dont you start by telling me what you believe and point out where you think that I am wrong...Then I will reply--only twice--i am against this sort of thing because unless i am converting you there is no need to waste my time...Furthermore, since you are already so well rounded, maybe i should teach you how to be the perfect stranger (feel free to ask what that means) and we're off..

Kellie said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Kellie said...

skimmed through your post, its a tad long, but correction: man was going to be immortal until he disobeyed God. God has no reason to fear anything. He created us, why would he fear us living forever? One can destroy what is created if it is a failure...But let's wait til you reply to my first comment...

Phreadom said...

can you give me the verses in the bible that back up what you just said? because I can give the ones that backup mine if you'd like. I think you're falling into a common misconception, and that is in believing what you've been told, or what you have made up yourself to make the bible fit what you want it to mean. but you're out of touch not only with reality, but with even what your bible actually says.

faith is a prerequisite for life today... you have to have faith, or perhaps "trust" is a more fitting word, in the judgement and word of others at times. we can't always take the time to research everything we believe in. at some point we have to trust someone else to know more about a subject than we do, and to base our opinions and decisions upon that knowledge.

the problem I have is with people who lack the common sense, critical thinking skills, intelligence, knowledge etc... to figure out for themselves when something plainly doesn't make sense or doesn't fit. that is where cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias step in... they are the greatest enemies of critical thinking skills and a truly open mind. a quick trip to google should prove very insightful on those topics.

some points for you to think about:
1) why did god create lucifer?
2) why did god create evil?
3) why did god have to fight the angels at all when they rebeled?
4) why did god try to prevent adam and eve eating the fruit?
5) why didn't he just remove the knowledge from them?
6) why didn't god just un-create lucifer after his rebellion?
7) why didn't god remove sin from us?
8) why does god repeatedly state in the bible that he is a jealous god whose name is Jealous?
9) why does the bible state that god can be killed or injured by iron chariots?

the list goes on and on and on... but you have to actually think. I know that's asking a lot, because you'll just say something like "who are we to understand the mysteries of god!" even though that is PRECISELY the problem I'm referring to here. willful ignorance. you have to actually THINK about those questions. critical thinking. logic. rational thought.

life makes so much more sense when you quit forcing yourself to think like an idiot in order to maintain a ridiculous fantasy.

so when you reply to this, don't just go spouting off about gods love and greatness... open your bible and read genesis for yourself before you respond. show me the verses that back up what you're saying.

I'm going to post another entry in a minute that's from a debate I had on usenet about 8 months ago. there is a large list of links in there that you should find interesting.

so there is some meat for you to chew on. try and make your next post a little more useful. thanks.

Kellie said...

Lucifer was an angel to begin with. God gave him authority over the other angels. Eventually he wanted more power than God. So he wanted to revolt. He and all of his followers were expelled from heaven.
Look, for every question you could possibly use to try and sway me away from my faith I could give you five (good) reasons why I know that God is real and that my religion is not a joke. If only you had the chance to see some of the things that I have seen...
Don't be too hard on Louise OR clive. They are baby christians, at least to me, but I am mature in my faith and I have been through the does God exist phase. been there done that. I have probably seen and been through things you couldn't even begin to imagine Mr. Graduate. So before you begin to talk to me like one of your misguided youths, think about what you are about to say. respect phreadom, thats what it is all about. Sort out the insults and get down to the meat and potatos. Don't be an asshole. You may have more years/education under your belt, but that is your only advantage in this discussion...(if it is on at all)..use some tact, and then respond--try and get on my level...

Super Footwear Girl said...

Phreadom-

You misread and misjudge me. I am incapable of talking smack- I already love you too much. You are so like I was just a few years ago. i htought I was "right" and I thought everyone else "lived in a fantasy". I thought I could do whatever I wanted and believe whatever I wanted.

You are very intellectual, but that doesn't make you "intelligent." God's word makes good sense. If it didn't, it wouldn't be the most historically accurate record in the world. If Jesus weren't important, every mojor world religion wouldn't honor Him in some way. If it isn't truth then when the world ends, you'll be right and we'll be screwed.

As for a persons beliefs--
You're right. We live in america and we pay taxes to have the freedom to say whatever we want. But america is one nation UNDER GOD. It's just illogical to ATACK someone and their beliefs and then ACCUSE them of not having any intellectual responses. Of course they won't want to say anything that is going to cause further provocation and they won't want to have anything to do with someone who has so little regard for their thoughts. It's not rude, it's WRONG. If you want response, care about what people have to say. If you want to run your mouth or whole life and be sorely dissapointed when you end up in hell, by all means, do so. God has given you the choice.

Super Footwear Girl said...

Oh and God didn't create evil. It just is. Read John MIltons PARADISE LOST and PARADISE REGAINED. I know, epic poetry, blah bl;ah blah... It's not biblical, but a scholar like yourself should be able to handle the conjecture that Milton draws from the word of God.

Kellie said...

1) why did god create lucifer?
He was an angel first
2) why did god create evil?
not created, it manifested itself
3) why did god have to fight the angels at all when they rebeled?
he didnt--they fought the other angels, and then were put out
4) why did god try to prevent adam and eve eating the fruit?
this was a test of thier obediance one, and after eating this they were plagued with unnecessary knowledge, they felt no shame before eating the fruit, and they did not have the capability of many of our modern petty humanisms...
5) why didn't he just remove the knowledge from them?
why would he? they obviously wanted it.
6) why didn't god just un-create lucifer after his rebellion?
that is part of the master plan. lucifer's punishment is coming, he will reside in the lake of fire after the apocolypse
7) why didn't god remove sin from us?
because he gave us free will, we have a choice to serve him, and a choice to believe in him. THere are consequences to our choices, but he isn't going to force us to do anything. I believe that this is our test to weed out the weak spirited so that another revolt like lucifers will not happen in heaven...Furthermore, he does not want to force a relationship with us. He created the earth and man and angels because he wanted to. He would come to earth and walk with Adam and adam wanted him there--before the fall of man
8) why does god repeatedly state in the bible that he is a jealous god whose name is Jealous?
wouldnt you be jealous if something you created worshipped someone else? not even that, what if that girl in the picture was into some one else and forgot about you? He wants to be first and foremost in our lives. If you name the name of God and claim to be one of his, you should act that way and put him first..

Super Footwear Girl said...

MORE ANSWERS:

God does not go back on his word, that is why he will not "uncreate" (destroy) Satan. Satan fits into His plan and he was ALLOWED by God to rebel. Nothin gis out of God's control.

God can't DIE, He is eternal. But His IMAGE can die and His SON did die (for you and for me).

We were not made to know the truth, but in OUR OWN DISOBEDIENCE, we insisted on it. God GAVE US FREE WILL SO THAT WE WOULD CHOOSE TO WORSHIP HIM AND NOT BE ROBOTS. For someone who is so learned, how did you miss that?

If you bore a child and reared it and loved it more than anything in the world, would you not be hurt if it loved your brother more than you? Or worse, a stranger? YES YOU WOULD, and don't lie. That is why God is a jealous God. He deemed us worthy above all else and before Christ there was nothing to assuage His anger and JEALOUSY if we turned from Him. God poured out His wrath on CHRIST in order that He could build a pathway for us to recieve His mercy and grace (which was always freely extended BEFORE CHRIST if on;ly we FOLLOWED HIM WITH ALL OUR HEART)

Again, I'm not sure how somone who knows so much about the bible DIDN"T PICK UP ON THAT, but hey I guess if you can misread the whole SATAN BEING KILLED BY IRON CHARIOTS THING, you can miss anything...

Again, I care about you and I worry for you... So much more love for you is waiting from a God that took the time to creat you in His own image and knows the measaure of the beats of your heart....

Kellie said...

and where exactly does the bible say that God can be injured or hurt with chariots...? This is in revelations about Satan or "lucifer" but no where have I found it about God. Prove me wrong...

Phreadom said...

lucifer wanted to be equal to god. so he and a third of all the angels revolted... and after a long battle they were kicked out of "heaven".

none of which yet answers the questions. why did god create him? or create him flawed? or allow him to revolt? or have to battle him? etc etc etc.

you are amazingly blind Kellie. you're so bent on trying to reaffirm your own beliefs that you're completely ignoring the most obvious points here.

aside from the fact that god, lucifer etc are all just fictional characters... the bible itself is still full of fallacies and errors and contradictions. you can't say in one verse that god is all powerful, perfect and omnipotent, and then elsewhere say that he's jealous and vulnerable to iron and can't find adam and eve in the garden after they hid etc. not to mention the bible calling bats birds, and saying that we thought with our heart and our emotions came from our kidneys.

the biblical authors were ignorant. they wrote what they knew... we have learned much more about the world we live in, the universe around us, and ourselves and the history of those since the time the bible was written. it's unfortunate that you can't see the glaring inconsistencies between the 2.

like the sun being created separately from the stars... the both separate from light... and day and night... or the plants before the sun, which they rely on for photosynthesis etc... or how all the animals that were supposedly the first life on earth were NOT the life we now know to be the first life... or things like "who did adam and eves children marry and have children with? either they weren't the only people, or they bred through incestuous sex. the same goes for noahs family.

you talk big, but I haven't heard any serious thought from you yet. but thank you for at least giving it a shot.

Phreadom said...

to head you two off at the pass:
Isaiah 45:7.

I'll continue posting the rest in a second.

Kellie said...

God knew where Adam and Eve were, he wanted to see if they would lie in addition to being disobediant...
Lucifer was created to serve, but he was also given free will..
I do not have all the answers because that is the mystery that is God...
Let me ask you a question? Where did all of the interesting scientific phenomenon behind the earths creation come from? What triggered the BIG BANG? I will ask this from an objective point of view: If there is a God, isn't he smarter than us and wouldnt he have all of the science figured out? Like I said I dont have ALL the answers, but I have proof. there is nothing you can say to make me disbelieve-I have seen too much. But, I dont think you're ready for all of that..
Not to mention, the bible has been translated, and re-translated numerous times. That could be the root of some of these "inconsistencies" that you speak of...but what do I know, I am a blind, gullible christian right? Where is the need for faith when you have physical proof? Faith, prayer and fasting have worked wonders numerous times. Hey how bout you taking a crack at demonic possession? And the efficiency of exorcism...Not that movie stuff, the real deal. I can speak from experience. Tell me what YOU KNOW...I'll be back for more tommorow. I have homework. I'll continue to pray for you...(dont get offended, I'm not talking to anyone anyway, right...?)

Phreadom said...

louise, I just read Dante's Inferno and am finishing the rest of the Divine Comedy before I start Miltons Paradise Lost, which I do have a copy of.

as for "under god", I believe I covered that in my post. that phrase was illegaly set as the official motto in the mid 1950's, expressly violating the constitution and replacing the much more fitting and respectful "e pluribus unum" (out of many [come] one) which celebrated the diversity of the people which made up this great nation... and didn't expressly violate the constitution and will of the founding fathers by setting god above the beliefs of it's people of differing beliefs.

I am intellectual and intelligent. I don't think that's really debateable. but if it makes you feel better.

kellie:

1) but god supposedly knows all things and the past and future. why did he still create lucifer if he knew what would happen?

2) wrong. see Isaiah 45:7. god created all things. evil didn't just pop out of nowhere. yet another silly belief.

3) good point. but the fact is, god still let them do battle, and still lost 1/3 of his angels to a flawed angel he created.

4) why did god need to test us? are we undeserving of free will? undeserving of the knowledge god posseses? because that is what we now have according to the bible. like I said.. go read genesis and pay close attention to that part in particular, and where he fears them eating from the fruit of the tree of eternal life etc.

5) hahaha... circular reasoning. he forbade that knowledge, and supposedly, from what you say, it hurt them and caused original sin and misery and death etc. so why punish us for it if he could remove it? only a sadistic god would do such a thing. eternal punishment and servitude... and a life of misery and death... for doing something he could easily have prevented or rectified. sounds like a nice guy.

6) so in the meantime, he lets his mistake wreak torment on humans for eternity (give or take a few years), cause sin and misery... and obviously succeed in many cases as he already managed to convert 1/3 of all the angels, and we're not even as great as they are. see a bit of a problem there? again. a sadistic god creating our misery and evil and not doing anything about it when supposedly it's well within his power.

7)wrong. wrong and WRONG. god DEMANDS obedience and subservience. free will is the realm of satan, NOT god. god expressly denies free will. most of what you just said is actually satanism. "do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" is the only commandment of satanism. free will. understanding the consequences of your actions and being free to make your own choice whether or not to take that action in light of that knowledge. all that was and is what satan stands for. you're WAY off base on this one. WAY.

8)why would a perfect god create flawed beings, create evil and sin, and then perpetuate them while demanding subservience of the very creatures he put in and maintains that misery for? you can't have a perfect loving god who creates and keeps you in sin and misery. you're having a little trouble here with confirmation bias. ;) don't ignore the obvious.

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anyway... talked with Kellie for awhile on AIM. cleared the air a bit. hopefully she doesn't think I'm such an asshole now. although we obviously still don't agree... I've slowed down a little bit and spent a lot more time explaining where I was coming from.

that's about all the steam I have for tonight. and I must say, I vastly prefer talking about stuff like this in person, or at least over AIM or the like. I hate the wait and the big responses etc. it's frustrating and impersonal.

have a nice night.