Monday, April 04, 2005

chew on this.

following in my vein of posting previous posts rather than having to retype everything I've said before, I've pulled up a copy of a post I made on usenet around 8 months ago that contains a list of verses and other information and well as plenty of food for thought.

I would appreciate that before the next person posts something here, that they actually put some serious thought into the questions I've posed and if they're going to make ANY statement about what God is, or does, or believes, or the church etc... that they list a bible verse that backs up that statement. because I'm getting awfully tired of people thinking that just because they were told something in sunday school, that that is what the bible actually says... much less having any historical, cultural or theological background behind it to put it into context.

thanks. (I have my study bible ready. it contains 4 side by side translations of the bible. the King James, New International, Living and New Revised Standard versions. if you list a verse, I'm pretty sure I won't have a problem finding it.)

Subject: Re: Christ is returning!!<--You bring the beer, I'll bring the nails! From: Phreadom
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 18:52:25 GMT

"Schfooge" wrote in
> "Phreadom" wrote in message
> news:Xns953E80827DCDBphr34d0m@
>> later, after rather dramatically different sects of christianity had
>> spread across the continent, Constantine and the council of Nicene,
>> who was a blatant pagan worshipping the sun and apollo etc, had HIS
>> version of the of the bible canonized, using only 4 of the over TWO
>> HUNDRED ACCEPTED AND HOLY GOSPELS of the time, many of which were
>> drastically different and contradictory and known to be works of
>> fiction or drastically edited to fit the whims of the particular
>> author... and which are largely suspected to be wholly bereft of ANY
>> works of the original
> That Constantine adopted Christianity for political reasons is likely
> true. That does not necessarily negate the value or the truth
> underlying the religion.

constantine was a christian by name, but a practicing pagan who was not
baptized until he laid on his death bed and a priest put holy water on his
forehead and baptized him as a christian just before his death. a nice
"just in case" measure. it was an easy method for him to reign in and
control the growing christian populace and guide it to his own political
aims. during his reign christianity was rewritten from it's foundations to
be as much pagan as it was christian. incorporating pagan beliefs from
ancient greek, roman, egyptian mythology etc... numerology, astrology...
constantine had a giant pagan obelisk (a phallus actually) moved into the
center of constantinople and forced his "christians" to worship that on
SUNday after he had the sabbath day moved to match the pagan day of sun
worship. he erected statues of apollo as himself and demanded the same of
them. the list goes on. after the canonization of what is essentially THE
christian bible, his own head of council told him that they had commited
heresy under fear of retribution from him if they did not comply
(execution). with all the other gospels destroyed (remember, books were a
very rare thing in those days, as each copy had to be hand written), that
pretty much cemented modern day christianity, and that's not even
mentioning the fact that it was bullshit before that...

oh, and let's not forget the christians burning the library of alexandria
because they didn't agree with the wealth of enlightened knowledge it
contained from all over the known world. their religious intolerance set
the WORLD back by CENTURIES. we would likely have had men on the moon in
the 1800's if not for YOUR religion. who can even IMAGINE where we would be
today... and the legacy CONTINUES! through the ages we've had to deal with
the inquisition, the witch hunts, even people being killed and imprisoned
for teaching evolution! such great thinkers as galileo had to RISK THEIR
LIVES to enlighten the world.

your religion at large has been, since it's inception, more of a hindrance
to the advance of humanity than it has been a help.

religion is the opiate of the masses, and your religion would rather have
all people as ignorant sheep who were still as they were 2 millenia ago,
and worshipping the imaginary sky god, and following the ancient religious
laws to the T. still reveling in ignorant amazement at things like
lightning, still thinking the earth was flat and the center of our solar
system, still believing it ok to own slaves, repress women, kill your
children etc...

thank GOD that there have been brave souls who could think outside the
narrow ignorant worldview commanded by christianity. (pun intended)

>> apostles. all the other gospels were destroyed at Constantines
>> command, thereby cementing the religion from then on as a descendant
>> of roman catholic dogma, known to be heretical even to the fictional
>> beliefs that came before...
> Actually, I somewhat agree with you there. Personally, I feel that
> the Bible is a flawed document with obvious problems. However, that
> does not necessarily mean that there is nothing of value or true in
> what remains. There is still much that is worthy and can be learned
> from in the Bible.

there is just as much to be learned from pretty much any religion on earth,
and there are religions which are BETTER suited to the task than
christianity. that is a hollow excuse. for instance:

rejoicing while you dash the brains of your enemies babies on rocks. (Psalm

kill your wife if she's not a virgin when you marry her.
(Deuteronomy 22:13-21)

kill your children who are too disobedient. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

kill anyone who works on the sabbath day (now do we make this saturday? or
sunday? or both?) (Exodus 35:2)

eating shrimp is an abomination in gods eyes, just as he thinks
homosexuality is. (Leviticus 11:9-12, Deuteronomy 14:9-10) and so is ham of
course... but grasshoppers and locusts are all good eatin' in gods eyes!
(Leviticus 11:22, Matthew 3:4)

kill anyone you think is a "witch" (Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 20:27)

the ACTUAL 10th commandment - "thou shalt not boil a baby goat in it's
mothers milk." following up that you must give the best of the first of
each years crop to the tabernacle. (look that one up if you don't believe
me, and make sure you actually get the ten commandments that god actually
says "these are my ten commandments, my covenant with the people..." and
not the ones that are NEVER called the ten commandments, but which
christians, trying to make their religion more palatable, adopted over the
REAL ones a few chapters later. (reference: your supposed ten commandments
in Exodus 20:2-17 and then the real ones, and more specifically the real
10th commandment in Exodus 34:26)

we can go on and on... killing your children in the name of god (Judges
11:30-39, Genesis 22:2, Exodus 22:29, II Samuel 21:8-14, Hebrews 10:10-12),
polygamy, mistresses (and we're talking HUNDREDS of sexual partners, wives,
mistresses per man: I Kings 11:1-3, Judges 8:30-31), killing rape victims
or forcing them to marry their rapists (Deuteronomy 22:23-24, Deuteronomy
22:28-29), women being worth half a man (Leviticus 27:1-7, Leviticus 12:1-
5), banning crippled people from church (Leviticus 21:16-23), banning
christmas trees (Jeremiah 10:2-8), hating your family (Luke 14:26, Matthew
10:37-38), only beating your slaves as much as they deserve (Luke 12:47-
48), sewing discord and division like jesus (Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:49-51),
castrating yourself (Matthew 19:11-12, and yes, he is talking about
castration), relying on prayer and oils from church to heal your sickness
(James 5:14-15), keeping your wife subservient at all times, and especially
keeping her silent in church (I Corinthians 14:34-35, I Corinthians 11:3,
Colossians 3:18, I Timothy 2:11-15), forbidding any non-christian to ever
come into your house (II John 10-11), kissing other men (as a man I
Thessalonians 5:26. See also Romans 16:16; I Corinthians 16:20; II
Corinthians 13:12; I Peter 5:14)...

and in case you missed it, there are new testament references in there as
well, for those of you who like to whine "but that's the old testament!" as
if somehow HALF THE BIBLE doesn't belong to your religion. "but jesus
changed all that!" wrong. he didn't. you should see the things he says, his
contradictions, the actions he sanctions and commands etc.

even the 10 commandments that you suckers DO follow, as though they're some
great moral guidlines are corrupt, self serving (to god) and have very
little bearing on modern day morality. like for instance if you rebel
against god, but your kids are faithful christians, IT DOESN'T MATTER.
they're going to hell! and their kids, and their kids kids, and their kids
kids kids, and their kids kids kids kids, and their kids kids kids kids
kids, and THEIR kids kids kids kids kids kids. NO MATTER WHAT KIND OF


the amount of EVIL *cough* that has been done in the world in the name of
christianity is simply staggering. it's a worthless fucking religion that
has been largely ignored and a few choice TINY parts taken out and molded
to the INTERPRETATIONS of the reader to further whatever goals they might
have. it's a religion ripped off of many older religions (which were just
as much bullshit), and then heaped with fiction on top.

sorry, but if you're so pathetic as to need that kind of crap in your life
and can't think for yourself, and need to have a preacher hold your hand
once a week (or more), and feel the need to belong to a group of other
stupid sheep... whatever floats your boat. just keep it the FUCK out of my
life, my goverment, etc. I honestly don't EVER hear other religions
infringing on my life, liberty or pursuit of happiness, but I at least ONCE
A DAY have to deal with christian IDIOCY fucking with my freedoms and


oh, don't even try to point to 9-11... I could go on a tirade about the
United States imperialistic international policies since it's inception
that have led directly to kind of hate that led to 9-11... not to mention
the fact that we armed and trained Osama ourselves when it was convenient
for us to have HIS people fight and die against the russians in afghanistan
during the cold war, and then our abandoning them still fully armed and
trained afterwards where they slowly grew to see what kind of nation we
really were, and over the next 20 years or so became "the terrorists" we're
now supposed to be so damn afraid of that we are having our most basic
civil liberties stripped from us as we spiral down into an orwellian police
state. and if you think the fact that George W. Bush is on record as
calling this war a "crusade" and "god is on our side" and that you
christian FUCKS in the mid 50's, IN VIOLATION OF THE CONSTITUTION,
rebranded this country a CHRISTIAN NATION, "UNDER GOD" and "IN GOD WE
TRUST", didn't really get the muslims up in arms... and when we do shit
like back the genocide of the palestinians in the name of Israel because
do some research on that jackass. and see who is WORLD RECOGNIZED as
causing the REAL war crimes.)... the list goes on and fucking on.

"e pluribus unum" - Out of many, (come) one. our original motto...
celebrating the diversity of beliefs, cultures, races, creeds etc that came
together to form our one great nation. the true vision of our founding
fathers. where all men are created equal and free in their pursuit of life,
liberty and the pursuit of happiness (including the right to believe in any
religion or no religion at all, and written directly in the constitution
and bill of rights, the means to ensure a secular and neutral government
taking no sides and equally protecting ALL of it's people in the NAME of
the people and the constitution ALONE. -NOT- in the name of god, or the
president... who even the president himself is expressly commanded to serve
the PEOPLE and the CONSTITUTION and have NO religious test for office. the
presidential oath was written into the constitution SPECIFICALLY WORDED to
NOT include ANY reference to god or religion etc. and every year the
government shits on the constitution they're sworn to serve by making the
president add "so help me god" to the end.

but I digress... the extents of your fucking idiocy and the detrimental
effects it has had on this nation domestically and our international
relations are so deep rooted and fundamental that I honestly don't think
we'll EVER recover... considering the current state of affairs where a
president actually pushes to pass a constitutional amendment to DENY rights
of it's people and not PROTECT them. you would have thought we would have
learned a lesson from segregation, womens sufferage, prohibition, the
banning of inter-racial marriages, DIRECTLY echoed by modern day events...

but I'm sure I'm wasting my breath on your thick skull... shielded by your
"god works in mysterious ways" self imposed ignorance and your rose colored

> blended with (again) historically verifiable pagan beliefs
>> such as switching the sabbath day (which had been saturday for
>> millennia) to SUNday which was the pagan day of worship (can you
>> guess why?), and
> I don't think the actual day matters so much as the fact that there is
> a day set aside for worship.

and why does there need to be a WORSHIP day set aside? I'm fucking SICK of
not being able to do certain things and have limitations imposed on me on
SUNday (which isn't even the real fucking sabbath day!) because a bunch of
uptight repressed prudes want to force THEIR religion on MY CIVIC FREEDOMS.


>> adopting the concept of the trinity, which had never before appeared
>> in christian (or jewish) texts,
> The trinity comes from early Christians wanting to worship Jesus as
> God, but not wanting to let go of strict Jewish monotheism. So, they
> basically said in this case, 3=1 and 1=3, but how that could be is a
> "Mystery". Translation: only God knows and He's not telling.
> Personally, I think the early Christians just should have let go of
> the monotheistic ideal. I also think there was no particular need to
> portray the Holy Spirit as a third entity either.

STOLEN DIRECTLY FROM THE PAGANS. (to which 3 was a holy number, numerology

> and halos (which pagans wore as rings of
>> feathers above their heads during their ceremonies), and many other
>> aspects.
> Halo's were an affectation of Christian art meant to emphasize the
> holiness or divinity of the person portrayed in the work of art.
> Halos themselves are not really part of the theological beliefs of
> Christianity, just a traditional way of depicting religious figures.

STOLEN DIRECTLY FROM THE PAGANS. (as I already explained)

>> are you comprehending any of this yet you fucking clueless little
>> turd?
>> go hug a tree and worship your imaginary sky god... I for one don't
>> need training wheels for my mind.
>> do us all a favor and kill yourself. let's find out if your beliefs
>> are really true... oh wait, you won't be able to let us know, you'll
>> be DEAD. just like nobody else EVER in history has came back from
>> being DEAD
> Well, no one for whom it was verifiably documented. But you are right
> ... we will all find out who's right someday.

haha... no, we won't. we'll be taking the eternal dirt nap. end of story.
nothing to tell. you fucking christians will be waiting FOREVER to (never)
find out what we people with functioning cognitive ability will have known
all along. I almost pity you suckers.

>> (after being brutally crucified and having his side slit open for
>> good measure no less)
>> *chuckle*
>> at least you christians are always good for a laugh at the extent to
>> which human stupidity, mental weakness and gullibility can go.
> I think you are being unfair grouping all Christians as being
> likeminded gullible fools. Yes, some of us accept anything we are
> told by the church and think every single word in the Bible is
> literally true, but others of us view a lot of the dogma and tradition
> of Christianity with a great dea1 more skepticism, and most of us are
> somewhere in the middle.

by definition, the belief in so many things that christianity entails,
you're labeling yourself. "yes, I believe in an imaginary sky god, a
religion provably stolen and made up and full of fallacies and
contradictions and things that I wouldn't believe in a million years if
someone told me that someone did them today."

if you don't believe the bible, why are you a christian at all? why not
just be a deist? oh... because that doesn't have all the feel good warm
fuzzy hand holding fantasies that full blown christianity does. *pat on
head* it'll be ok.

> Personally, I think any judgement that we will face won't be on the
> basis of what we believe, but on how we behave in life. Belief is not
> a choice, it's an emotional reaction. Thus, you can't really control
> how you believe. But we can control how we behave and how we treat
> others. At the end, I don't think God really cares if you believe in
> the trinity or in the divinity of Christ. What he will care about is
> if you emulated Christ by being kind, generous, helpful, etc. to
> others.

well, according to YOUR religion, that's not true. you're just making shit
up... but hey! it's all in the time tested and honored tradition of
religion! :D

and yes, you do have some control over what you believe. it's called
looking at the facts, the reality, the evidence, being skeptical and
testing your beliefs and readjusting them to the evolving world around you.

I can live a life as good (or better) than any christian, and per YOUR
RELIGION, I STILL won't get into heaven, because I didn't SPECIFICALLY kiss
your JEALOUS GODS ASS (and yes, if you want I can tell you the verses where
god actually calls himself a jealous god and his name is jealous several
times. and that he lives in darkness, and that he created evil himself

your whole belief structure is immensely fucking outdated, plagiarized,
incorrect, self-contradictory, repressive, immoral, ignorant... hell, I'd
easily say that several parts of your religion would be correctly termed


now tell me again why I shouldn't mock you stupid fucks? you can try to re-
interpret and try to rethink your way around the GLARING problems with your
beliefs all day long... but the simple and obvious answer to those of us
with functioning brains not crippled by the cognitive dissonance of having
been brainwashed into a cult and now being unable to de-program ourselves,
is that you're a fucking weak minded twit who can't seem to remove his
mental training wheels.

(PS: this is under the assumption that you're a male.. if you're not and
you're still a christian, I hope you go shoot yourself. your religion has
been a driving force in the repression and abuse of women for millenia, not
to mention racial and sexual opression up to and including the outright
horrific and brutal murder of millions of people since it's inception.)

nuff said.


Kellie said...

no one is going to read this it is waay too long but i attempted starting in the middle. After christ died for the sins of the world, grace started. The old testament foward was law, we are now in what the period called grace. There is no need for generational curses or punishments, or making sacrifices because the ultimate sacrifice has been made. "For sin will not have dominion over you, for you are not under law, but under grace..."Romans 6:14. Look that up and try and prove me wrong. Do it in my blog or shorten your entries...

Phreadom said...

so we no longer have original sin? and if he died for our sins and we're forgiven, then why can't we get into heaven without still repenting and worshipping him and being subservient etc? why is nothing any different than it was before?

these are the same kind of questions I've already asked you. you simply keep avoiding answering them.

hell, on that topic, then explain to me how GODS WORD in the 10 Commandments, NO LONGER APPLIES? so it's ok to murder now? it's ok to blaspheme gods name? steal? lie?

seriously. THINK GIRL.

and don't whine to me about long posts... I've read everyone elses journals today, as well as re-read my own posts several times in order to catch spelling errors I had made originally etc. not to mention proof reading many of the other links I posted on my blog etc.

and to clarify for you, if you put that verse in the context of the rest of the chapter, you'll see that you are NOT free of sin... it's still there just fine. you simply have to make the choice not to be it's slave, and your given alternative is to be a slave to righteousness or DIE.

I'm guessing you missed that part in your sunday school lesson. and we still end up back at the questions I asked you already.


(and get yourself a better bible than the King James. it was ok in it's day, aside from a few parts that were deliberately mistranslated to protect King James own actions etc. there are much newer and far more accurate translations available.)

Kellie said...

well mr scholar read the verses that follow. It asks if we should sin because we are in grace and what is the answer? OF COURSE NOT!!!As a matter of fact that is what is said in verse 15. I use my godfather's bibles from time to time. He has a lot of them. Even the ones with the missing books..
ANd no I did not miss that part, I just ASSUMED YOU WOULD KNOW with your religious studies degree where I was heading with that. And you did. I just didnt want to leave a novel in your blog...C'mon phreadom you gotta come better than that. Ok, well I really need to get some work done. Don't underestimate me.

Kellie said...

DUH! Who reads the bible by verses...I told you before, you are not talking to some bible-camp, jesus is lord, twelve year old...

Lisa said...

Wow, that was quite the post.

I don't think it's necessary to debate this. It is obvious that nothing anyone says will change your mind. Which is good, in a way, because you know what you believe and will stick to that.

I don't understand why such negativity is necessary with regards to religion, though. Why can't you just have your opinions and beliefs, without insulting others? I see what you're saying, I honestly do, I'm just wondering why you seem so angry.

vyoma said...

define religion. its very simple. the religion of a metal like iron (yes everything we can see or feel has its own religion) is to be iron! to have the properties of iron. every animal's religion is to eat, sleep, hunt and mate. humans are born with intelligence to change everything around them, to understand every thing and answer every question that could ever be. nothing is impossible for a human to do. so whats our religion. to find out how come we are the only things around this place that can make so much sense out of everything. where did we come from, why are we here, and whats the next stage? what next? and its really easy to find all of this out by yourself, by asking for help from any powerful entity that might be responsible for creating all that we can see. and believe me when i tell you that this entity will help you.

you don't need any books, or any "pious" people or the dalai lama or any living person to guide you or tell you what to do. make your own religion! and learn to deal with everything that makes you unhappy - anger, greed, jealousy, cruelty, hatred - you don't even need god to tell you that these qualities are negative!

nobody needs commandments. the person who created us wants us to be independant - on our own - its like a treasure hunt - you can look at other people to get clues, but you've got to use your own brain to get to the damn treasure. so all the best!

Phreadom said...

some quotes to consider.

"Science is an eternal struggle against our desire to have the universe be ordered in some emotionally satisfying way."

"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with
sense, reason and intellect, has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei

and vyoma... I'm not sure where you get all that from... but you're obviously a few crayons short of a full box.

re·li·gion Audio pronunciation of "religion" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

get religion Informal

1. To become religious or devout.
2. To resolve to end one's immoral behavior.

I really don't think I need to explain further.

Brandon said...

i think you read the da'vincii code a lot. Man you dont get anywhere with negativity, there has to be a reason why you obsess so much over denying christianity. You have a lot of hate in you. Someone who was christian did something bad to you and the only way you can get back at them is to make derogatory comments about their faith.

Phreadom said...

brandon, try saying something intelligent, and I'll listen.

but thanks anyway.