chew on this.

following in my vein of posting previous posts rather than having to retype everything I've said before, I've pulled up a copy of a post I made on usenet around 8 months ago that contains a list of verses and other information and well as plenty of food for thought.

I would appreciate that before the next person posts something here, that they actually put some serious thought into the questions I've posed and if they're going to make ANY statement about what God is, or does, or believes, or the church etc... that they list a bible verse that backs up that statement. because I'm getting awfully tired of people thinking that just because they were told something in sunday school, that that is what the bible actually says... much less having any historical, cultural or theological background behind it to put it into context.

thanks. (I have my study bible ready. it contains 4 side by side translations of the bible. the King James, New International, Living and New Revised Standard versions. if you list a verse, I'm pretty sure I won't have a problem finding it.)

---------------------------------
Subject: Re: Christ is returning!!<--You bring the beer, I'll bring the nails! From: Phreadom
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 18:52:25 GMT

"Schfooge" wrote in
news:zriRc.132$SH9.68@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com:
>
> "Phreadom" wrote in message
> news:Xns953E80827DCDBphr34d0m@65.24.7.50...
>
>> THIS IS DOCUMENTED HISTORICAL FACT. then a good THREE HUNDRED years
>> later, after rather dramatically different sects of christianity had
>> spread across the continent, Constantine and the council of Nicene,
>> who was a blatant pagan worshipping the sun and apollo etc, had HIS
>> version of the of the bible canonized, using only 4 of the over TWO
>> HUNDRED ACCEPTED AND HOLY GOSPELS of the time, many of which were
>> drastically different and contradictory and known to be works of
>> fiction or drastically edited to fit the whims of the particular
>> author... and which are largely suspected to be wholly bereft of ANY
>> works of the original
>
> That Constantine adopted Christianity for political reasons is likely
> true. That does not necessarily negate the value or the truth
> underlying the religion.

constantine was a christian by name, but a practicing pagan who was not
baptized until he laid on his death bed and a priest put holy water on his
forehead and baptized him as a christian just before his death. a nice
"just in case" measure. it was an easy method for him to reign in and
control the growing christian populace and guide it to his own political
aims. during his reign christianity was rewritten from it's foundations to
be as much pagan as it was christian. incorporating pagan beliefs from
ancient greek, roman, egyptian mythology etc... numerology, astrology...
constantine had a giant pagan obelisk (a phallus actually) moved into the
center of constantinople and forced his "christians" to worship that on
SUNday after he had the sabbath day moved to match the pagan day of sun
worship. he erected statues of apollo as himself and demanded the same of
them. the list goes on. after the canonization of what is essentially THE
christian bible, his own head of council told him that they had commited
heresy under fear of retribution from him if they did not comply
(execution). with all the other gospels destroyed (remember, books were a
very rare thing in those days, as each copy had to be hand written), that
pretty much cemented modern day christianity, and that's not even
mentioning the fact that it was bullshit before that...

oh, and let's not forget the christians burning the library of alexandria
because they didn't agree with the wealth of enlightened knowledge it
contained from all over the known world. their religious intolerance set
the WORLD back by CENTURIES. we would likely have had men on the moon in
the 1800's if not for YOUR religion. who can even IMAGINE where we would be
today... and the legacy CONTINUES! through the ages we've had to deal with
the inquisition, the witch hunts, even people being killed and imprisoned
for teaching evolution! such great thinkers as galileo had to RISK THEIR
LIVES to enlighten the world.

your religion at large has been, since it's inception, more of a hindrance
to the advance of humanity than it has been a help.

religion is the opiate of the masses, and your religion would rather have
all people as ignorant sheep who were still as they were 2 millenia ago,
and worshipping the imaginary sky god, and following the ancient religious
laws to the T. still reveling in ignorant amazement at things like
lightning, still thinking the earth was flat and the center of our solar
system, still believing it ok to own slaves, repress women, kill your
children etc...

thank GOD that there have been brave souls who could think outside the
narrow ignorant worldview commanded by christianity. (pun intended)

>> apostles. all the other gospels were destroyed at Constantines
>> command, thereby cementing the religion from then on as a descendant
>> of roman catholic dogma, known to be heretical even to the fictional
>> beliefs that came before...
>
> Actually, I somewhat agree with you there. Personally, I feel that
> the Bible is a flawed document with obvious problems. However, that
> does not necessarily mean that there is nothing of value or true in
> what remains. There is still much that is worthy and can be learned
> from in the Bible.

there is just as much to be learned from pretty much any religion on earth,
and there are religions which are BETTER suited to the task than
christianity. that is a hollow excuse. for instance:

rejoicing while you dash the brains of your enemies babies on rocks. (Psalm
137:8-9)

kill your wife if she's not a virgin when you marry her.
(Deuteronomy 22:13-21)

kill your children who are too disobedient. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

kill anyone who works on the sabbath day (now do we make this saturday? or
sunday? or both?) (Exodus 35:2)

eating shrimp is an abomination in gods eyes, just as he thinks
homosexuality is. (Leviticus 11:9-12, Deuteronomy 14:9-10) and so is ham of
course... but grasshoppers and locusts are all good eatin' in gods eyes!
(Leviticus 11:22, Matthew 3:4)

kill anyone you think is a "witch" (Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 20:27)

the ACTUAL 10th commandment - "thou shalt not boil a baby goat in it's
mothers milk." following up that you must give the best of the first of
each years crop to the tabernacle. (look that one up if you don't believe
me, and make sure you actually get the ten commandments that god actually
says "these are my ten commandments, my covenant with the people..." and
not the ones that are NEVER called the ten commandments, but which
christians, trying to make their religion more palatable, adopted over the
REAL ones a few chapters later. (reference: your supposed ten commandments
in Exodus 20:2-17 and then the real ones, and more specifically the real
10th commandment in Exodus 34:26)

we can go on and on... killing your children in the name of god (Judges
11:30-39, Genesis 22:2, Exodus 22:29, II Samuel 21:8-14, Hebrews 10:10-12),
polygamy, mistresses (and we're talking HUNDREDS of sexual partners, wives,
mistresses per man: I Kings 11:1-3, Judges 8:30-31), killing rape victims
or forcing them to marry their rapists (Deuteronomy 22:23-24, Deuteronomy
22:28-29), women being worth half a man (Leviticus 27:1-7, Leviticus 12:1-
5), banning crippled people from church (Leviticus 21:16-23), banning
christmas trees (Jeremiah 10:2-8), hating your family (Luke 14:26, Matthew
10:37-38), only beating your slaves as much as they deserve (Luke 12:47-
48), sewing discord and division like jesus (Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:49-51),
castrating yourself (Matthew 19:11-12, and yes, he is talking about
castration), relying on prayer and oils from church to heal your sickness
(James 5:14-15), keeping your wife subservient at all times, and especially
keeping her silent in church (I Corinthians 14:34-35, I Corinthians 11:3,
Colossians 3:18, I Timothy 2:11-15), forbidding any non-christian to ever
come into your house (II John 10-11), kissing other men (as a man I
Thessalonians 5:26. See also Romans 16:16; I Corinthians 16:20; II
Corinthians 13:12; I Peter 5:14)...

and in case you missed it, there are new testament references in there as
well, for those of you who like to whine "but that's the old testament!" as
if somehow HALF THE BIBLE doesn't belong to your religion. "but jesus
changed all that!" wrong. he didn't. you should see the things he says, his
contradictions, the actions he sanctions and commands etc.

even the 10 commandments that you suckers DO follow, as though they're some
great moral guidlines are corrupt, self serving (to god) and have very
little bearing on modern day morality. like for instance if you rebel
against god, but your kids are faithful christians, IT DOESN'T MATTER.
they're going to hell! and their kids, and their kids kids, and their kids
kids kids, and their kids kids kids kids, and their kids kids kids kids
kids, and THEIR kids kids kids kids kids kids. NO MATTER WHAT KIND OF
PEOPLE THEY ARE, AND EVEN THOUGH THEY DID NOTHING WRONG OR COULD POSSIBLY
HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT. WHAT A LOVING AND FORGIVING BENEVOLENT GOD.

hahaha

the amount of EVIL *cough* that has been done in the world in the name of
christianity is simply staggering. it's a worthless fucking religion that
has been largely ignored and a few choice TINY parts taken out and molded
to the INTERPRETATIONS of the reader to further whatever goals they might
have. it's a religion ripped off of many older religions (which were just
as much bullshit), and then heaped with fiction on top.

sorry, but if you're so pathetic as to need that kind of crap in your life
and can't think for yourself, and need to have a preacher hold your hand
once a week (or more), and feel the need to belong to a group of other
stupid sheep... whatever floats your boat. just keep it the FUCK out of my
life, my goverment, etc. I honestly don't EVER hear other religions
infringing on my life, liberty or pursuit of happiness, but I at least ONCE
A DAY have to deal with christian IDIOCY fucking with my freedoms and
happiness.

:)

oh, don't even try to point to 9-11... I could go on a tirade about the
United States imperialistic international policies since it's inception
that have led directly to kind of hate that led to 9-11... not to mention
the fact that we armed and trained Osama ourselves when it was convenient
for us to have HIS people fight and die against the russians in afghanistan
during the cold war, and then our abandoning them still fully armed and
trained afterwards where they slowly grew to see what kind of nation we
really were, and over the next 20 years or so became "the terrorists" we're
now supposed to be so damn afraid of that we are having our most basic
civil liberties stripped from us as we spiral down into an orwellian police
state. and if you think the fact that George W. Bush is on record as
calling this war a "crusade" and "god is on our side" and that you
christian FUCKS in the mid 50's, IN VIOLATION OF THE CONSTITUTION,
rebranded this country a CHRISTIAN NATION, "UNDER GOD" and "IN GOD WE
TRUST", didn't really get the muslims up in arms... and when we do shit
like back the genocide of the palestinians in the name of Israel because
GOD SAID THEY HAD A RIGHT TO THAT LAND 3,000 YEARS AGO (yeah, why don't you
do some research on that jackass. and see who is WORLD RECOGNIZED as
causing the REAL war crimes.)... the list goes on and fucking on.

"e pluribus unum" - Out of many, (come) one. our original motto...
celebrating the diversity of beliefs, cultures, races, creeds etc that came
together to form our one great nation. the true vision of our founding
fathers. where all men are created equal and free in their pursuit of life,
liberty and the pursuit of happiness (including the right to believe in any
religion or no religion at all, and written directly in the constitution
and bill of rights, the means to ensure a secular and neutral government
taking no sides and equally protecting ALL of it's people in the NAME of
the people and the constitution ALONE. -NOT- in the name of god, or the
president... who even the president himself is expressly commanded to serve
the PEOPLE and the CONSTITUTION and have NO religious test for office. the
presidential oath was written into the constitution SPECIFICALLY WORDED to
NOT include ANY reference to god or religion etc. and every year the
government shits on the constitution they're sworn to serve by making the
president add "so help me god" to the end.

but I digress... the extents of your fucking idiocy and the detrimental
effects it has had on this nation domestically and our international
relations are so deep rooted and fundamental that I honestly don't think
we'll EVER recover... considering the current state of affairs where a
president actually pushes to pass a constitutional amendment to DENY rights
of it's people and not PROTECT them. you would have thought we would have
learned a lesson from segregation, womens sufferage, prohibition, the
banning of inter-racial marriages, DIRECTLY echoed by modern day events...

but I'm sure I'm wasting my breath on your thick skull... shielded by your
"god works in mysterious ways" self imposed ignorance and your rose colored
glasses.

> blended with (again) historically verifiable pagan beliefs
>> such as switching the sabbath day (which had been saturday for
>> millennia) to SUNday which was the pagan day of worship (can you
>> guess why?), and
>
> I don't think the actual day matters so much as the fact that there is
> a day set aside for worship.

and why does there need to be a WORSHIP day set aside? I'm fucking SICK of
not being able to do certain things and have limitations imposed on me on
SUNday (which isn't even the real fucking sabbath day!) because a bunch of
uptight repressed prudes want to force THEIR religion on MY CIVIC FREEDOMS.

again, FUCK YOU AND YOUR IMAGINARY SKY GOD.

>> adopting the concept of the trinity, which had never before appeared
>> in christian (or jewish) texts,
>
> The trinity comes from early Christians wanting to worship Jesus as
> God, but not wanting to let go of strict Jewish monotheism. So, they
> basically said in this case, 3=1 and 1=3, but how that could be is a
> "Mystery". Translation: only God knows and He's not telling.
> Personally, I think the early Christians just should have let go of
> the monotheistic ideal. I also think there was no particular need to
> portray the Holy Spirit as a third entity either.

STOLEN DIRECTLY FROM THE PAGANS. (to which 3 was a holy number, numerology
etc)

> and halos (which pagans wore as rings of
>> feathers above their heads during their ceremonies), and many other
>> aspects.
>
> Halo's were an affectation of Christian art meant to emphasize the
> holiness or divinity of the person portrayed in the work of art.
> Halos themselves are not really part of the theological beliefs of
> Christianity, just a traditional way of depicting religious figures.

STOLEN DIRECTLY FROM THE PAGANS. (as I already explained)

>> are you comprehending any of this yet you fucking clueless little
>> turd?
>>
>> go hug a tree and worship your imaginary sky god... I for one don't
>> need training wheels for my mind.
>>
>> do us all a favor and kill yourself. let's find out if your beliefs
>> are really true... oh wait, you won't be able to let us know, you'll
>> be DEAD. just like nobody else EVER in history has came back from
>> being DEAD
>
> Well, no one for whom it was verifiably documented. But you are right
> ... we will all find out who's right someday.

haha... no, we won't. we'll be taking the eternal dirt nap. end of story.
nothing to tell. you fucking christians will be waiting FOREVER to (never)
find out what we people with functioning cognitive ability will have known
all along. I almost pity you suckers.

>> (after being brutally crucified and having his side slit open for
>> good measure no less)
>>
>> *chuckle*
>>
>> at least you christians are always good for a laugh at the extent to
>> which human stupidity, mental weakness and gullibility can go.
>
> I think you are being unfair grouping all Christians as being
> likeminded gullible fools. Yes, some of us accept anything we are
> told by the church and think every single word in the Bible is
> literally true, but others of us view a lot of the dogma and tradition
> of Christianity with a great dea1 more skepticism, and most of us are
> somewhere in the middle.

by definition, the belief in so many things that christianity entails,
AUTOMATICALLY LABELS YOURSELVES FUCKING IDIOTS. I'm not labeling you,
you're labeling yourself. "yes, I believe in an imaginary sky god, a
religion provably stolen and made up and full of fallacies and
contradictions and things that I wouldn't believe in a million years if
someone told me that someone did them today."

if you don't believe the bible, why are you a christian at all? why not
just be a deist? oh... because that doesn't have all the feel good warm
fuzzy hand holding fantasies that full blown christianity does. *pat on
head* it'll be ok.

> Personally, I think any judgement that we will face won't be on the
> basis of what we believe, but on how we behave in life. Belief is not
> a choice, it's an emotional reaction. Thus, you can't really control
> how you believe. But we can control how we behave and how we treat
> others. At the end, I don't think God really cares if you believe in
> the trinity or in the divinity of Christ. What he will care about is
> if you emulated Christ by being kind, generous, helpful, etc. to
> others.
>

well, according to YOUR religion, that's not true. you're just making shit
up... but hey! it's all in the time tested and honored tradition of
religion! :D

and yes, you do have some control over what you believe. it's called
looking at the facts, the reality, the evidence, being skeptical and
testing your beliefs and readjusting them to the evolving world around you.

I can live a life as good (or better) than any christian, and per YOUR
RELIGION, I STILL won't get into heaven, because I didn't SPECIFICALLY kiss
your JEALOUS GODS ASS (and yes, if you want I can tell you the verses where
god actually calls himself a jealous god and his name is jealous several
times. and that he lives in darkness, and that he created evil himself
etc.)

your whole belief structure is immensely fucking outdated, plagiarized,
incorrect, self-contradictory, repressive, immoral, ignorant... hell, I'd
easily say that several parts of your religion would be correctly termed
EVIL... BASED ON YOUR OWN RELIGIOUS DEFINITIONS!

hahahaha

now tell me again why I shouldn't mock you stupid fucks? you can try to re-
interpret and try to rethink your way around the GLARING problems with your
beliefs all day long... but the simple and obvious answer to those of us
with functioning brains not crippled by the cognitive dissonance of having
been brainwashed into a cult and now being unable to de-program ourselves,
is that you're a fucking weak minded twit who can't seem to remove his
mental training wheels.


(PS: this is under the assumption that you're a male.. if you're not and
you're still a christian, I hope you go shoot yourself. your religion has
been a driving force in the repression and abuse of women for millenia, not
to mention racial and sexual opression up to and including the outright
horrific and brutal murder of millions of people since it's inception.)

nuff said.