my chat with koden tonight.

koden, from my #phreadom irc channel, bought and sent me a book off amazon.com that he said I should read... Malcolm Gladwell's "The Tipping Point"

very awesome of him.

after pulling that out of my mailbox and opening it when I got home... I posted on a few blogs and ended up getting into a debate with him over the basic content of some of my posts... a transcript follows.

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<largo> http://his-phoenix.blogspot.com/2005/04/major-coup-detat-for-carlo.html
Title: His Phoenix: Major coup d'etat for Carlo (at his-phoenix.blogspot.com)
<largo> please read the comments on that post and tell me what you think.
<largo> frankly I think these idiots are just trying to intimidate me and continually try to liken belief in science to religious belief. ie; a 1 to 1 direct comparison.
<largo> so that if I believe in science, then a belief in god is equally as valid.
<largo> CROCK OF SHIT. :)
<koden> they are close to 1:1
<koden> depends on the answer you are looking for
<largo> elaborate on that please.
<largo> there is a vast difference between provable and wishful thinking.
<koden> to believe science has all the answers, is the same as to believe religion, or faith does
<koden> religion and faith are seperable
<koden> very few things in true science are provable if followed far enough
<largo> god being a god in the gaps... a catch all for the unexplained. and science being the provable beyond a reasonable doubt foundation of understanding the true principles of our environment. as science advances, god in the christian sense is continually pushed into the recesses of the increasingly smaller realm of the unexplained.
<koden> they are true in the context you choose to use them
<largo> use your belief in god to fly a satellite and land in on a moon of saturn then.
<koden> you make too many assumptions i think there
<largo> and this is ignoring the obvious CROCK OF SHIT literal nature of the bible etc.
<koden> science is far from beyond reasonable doubt
<koden> science is only true until disproven generally
<largo> and it is not just a metaphorical story by understanding people... it is a book written in abject ignorance of reality outside the very primitive paradigm of reality that the supposed authors of the bible grasped.
<koden> you are ranting, not discussing
<largo> science is provable beyond a reasonable doubt, and is generally simply refined on. not continually utterly disproven as mythology and supertitious belief.
<koden> science or god, they are both faith
<largo> "well, this book, written thousands of years ago, and full of easily disproven crap, is the foundation for a belief in a guy in the clouds who loves us and directs our lives and helps us out with answered prayers, blessing etc."
* koden waits for another big paragraph
<koden> so christianity and the bible is the only bunk religion?
<largo> faith also allows us to walk outside in the morning and believe that our car will run to drive us to work.
<largo> don't use such an extremely broad word to tie together to disparate belief systems.
<largo> I've been dealing with that enough lately.
<largo> s/to/two
<largo> no, I think islam and judaism as well as many others are a crock of shit as well.
<largo> religion is generally speaking, fundamentally a force to explain the unexplained, provide emotional comfort and social coherence.
<largo> none of which proves or even necessitates any real veracity of said beliefs.
<koden> and what is wrong with that?
<koden> i sit here soundly with the faith that gravity keeps me on the ground, there is no harm in that faith
<largo> in and of itself? more power to those who need it. however, in reality, the subservience it teaches to authority figures leads to a populace of sheep unable to question authority or critically assess information to come to an objective opinion of the facts at hand.
<koden> i also sit here knowing that it is mathematically possible for all the oxygen in the room to collect in the corner, but i dont "believe" it will, no harm in that faith either
<largo> because gravity can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and is regularly used to advance humanity because of it's provable and understood nature.
<koden> so your disdain for religion is that for a disdain of people being subservient?
<koden> gravity is not proven, only observed
<largo> just because we haven't tied gravity into a unified theory, doesn't mean we can't steer spacecraft around our solar system and beyond with the solid facts that we know about it.
<largo> god is neither.
<koden> there is no understanding as to why it exists
<largo> not proven and not observed.
<koden> excatlly, both are faith
<largo> the only "observation" of god is just people ascribing things to him after the fact that they can't understand.
<largo> there isn't even a basic proof of god. there is NO proof.
<largo> big fucking difference.
<largo> but we know it exists. how does not understand "why" yet, disprove it's existance?
<largo> we don't know why WE exist... yet we're here.
<largo> OH NO.
<koden> so people that beleive in a god, to answer the question of "why everything exists?" are wrong, and those that say science has an answer is correct?
<largo> we're going to disappear because we can't prove WHY we exist!!
<largo> OH NOOOOOooooooo.......
<largo> *blink out of existance*
<koden> god is not supposed to have proof, faith is required as any priest or pastor will assure you :)
<largo> it's childish to have to come up with ridiculous fantasies to explain the unexplained just to make yourself feel better.
<koden> it's is in our nature to want to understand and question
<koden> it is neither childish to ask or pursue the question
<largo> it's no different than having to believe that lightning was zeus casting down bolts in retaliation for our sins.
<koden> it would be neive not to
<koden> and? whats the problem with
<largo> it's a stupid fantasy to explain the unexplained, completely unfounded in reality/fact. and eventually disproven as such, which is precisely what is happenening with pretty much all of the supernatural aspects of christianity.
<koden> other then your issue with some sort of sheepening of people i dont see any harm
<largo> which is why christians are fighting so hard to keep such beliefs out of their schools etc.
<largo> it's a threat to their fantasies.
<largo> SORRY. REALITY KNOCKING.
<koden> well my stance on the schools doesnt really apply
<koden> it's a states issue if you ask me
<koden> and i see no problems with letting them decide
<largo> pursue all you want. that's the point. don't stop and say "I don't understand this. so there must be a man on top of that cloud who is doing ALL of this unexplained stuff, and a large portion of this explained stuff that I simply refuse to acknowledge, because facing reality isn't as comfortable as the fairytale I'm preferential to."
<largo> I seriously don't have the energy to debate with you playing devils advocate right now sean.
<largo> I've had a few drinks and it's 3:30am.
<largo> I've been dealing with this shit for weeks now and I have low tolerance for such an approach.
<koden> ok so let run past this now... to assume there is a creator is dumb, and the fact that science has no proof of creation means i am childish for even trying to understand
<largo> wait.
<koden> i am not playing devils advocate, more i think you are wrong
<largo> assuming that there is something behind the creation of the universe that we have ZERO clue about. NOTHING AT ALL.... that's fine.
<largo> ascribing it to a man in the clouds?
<largo> STUPID.
<koden> not really
<largo> there is a reason there are so many religions claiming different origins of life, the universe, man etc.
<koden> if you had the power to create the universe wouldn't you? :)
<largo> because they all did the same thing.
<largo> made up their own stories to explain the unexplained.
<koden> and i again ask, where is the harm?
<koden> and remove "religon" from this
<largo> the harm is in the product of such an ignorant mindset.
<koden> you obviuosly have some personal issues with the idea of religion
<largo> religious wars, religious persecution, the supression of intellectual thought to maintain ignorance as a means to power etc.
<largo> think about it.
<largo> I think you're smart enough that I shouldn't have to explain that.
<koden> isn't ignorance more of an example of someone denying a possibility?
<largo> THAT is what's starting to piss me off.
<largo> ignorance is a lack of knowledge.
<koden> if i call science stupid, i am ignorant. you call god stupid you are enlightened?
<largo> which is what is promoted by religion.
<largo> I didn't call god stupid. I said the belief in the christian god, or generally any major religions definition of god, is stupid.
<koden> ignorance is not lack of knowledge, ignorance is the failure to acknowledge something you know
<largo> semantics.
<largo> that is stupidity.
<koden> ok so god is not dumb but a christian god is dumb?
<largo> ---------
<largo> ig·no·rance Audio pronunciation of "ignorance" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gnr-ns)
<largo> n.
<largo> The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.
<largo> -------
<largo> stupidity
<largo> n 1: a poor ability to understand or to profit from experience [ant: intelligence] 2: a stupid mistake [syn: betise, folly, foolishness, imbecility]
<largo> ----------
<koden> ok
<largo> note the difference.
<koden> now
<largo> seriously sean. I'm not in the mood.
<koden> so einstein being a man of faith
<koden> is stupid
<koden> but not ignorant?
<largo> so was newton.
<largo> in a sense so have been most of the great thinkers.
<koden> so they are the exception?
<largo> they simply chose to question and disagree with their own faith. they stepped outside of christianity.
<largo> they essentially became deists.
<koden> ok but their belief in a creator is ok?
<koden> just bad christian/islam/jew gods are no good
<largo> believing that some power created the universe is a matter of faith. claiming it as fact is stupid, and ascribing it to the christian god is downright idiotic.
<koden> i don't understand how being "anti-religion" makes sense
<largo> QUIT BLURRING THE FUCKING LINES.
<largo> jesus christ sean... it's like you're just pushing my buttons for fun.
<koden> blurring the lines? there are no lines life is grey :P
<largo> I'm done debating.
<koden> ok
* largo has a cigarette.
<largo> I appreciate the mental jogging...
<koden> ahh good idea
<largo> but I have a limit of patience. :(
* koden smokes too
<largo> it's a shortcoming of my character.
<koden> its a big topic to take on with out patience :)
<largo> precisely.
* koden playes some james brown
<largo> Eminem - Superman.
<koden> James Brown - Papa
<largo> papa got a brand new bag?
<koden> s Got a brand new bag
<koden> jah
<largo> :)
<koden> hrmm edith piaf would be good now too
<koden> anyway... I have read and studied a lot of that stuff, as well as religions like judaism, freemasonry, latter day saints (
<koden> whats up with freemasons?
<koden> my family on my dad's side were all mason's
<largo> I like Edith Piaf. I have a decent amount of her.
<koden> i just have a best of albumn
<largo> from what I've read on freemasons... it sounds like they're much more in line with old school judaism.
<koden> they are supposed to run the world too right?
<largo> supposedly.
<koden> i had actually thought about checking it out from time to time
<largo> I'm not sure what foundation in reality that likening them with the illuminati and such has.
<largo> from what I've read, there's still too much of a devout belief in god and such.
<largo> interesting, but not my cup of tea.
<koden> i think the only requirement is a belief in a creator, any denomination is accepted
<koden> apparently anyone can join now
<largo> to a point I think.
<largo> well, there's a difference.
<largo> if you're referring to the freemasons based on the grand lodge of england, yes.
<koden> when my father was young you had to be a blood relative of a member
<largo> but if you follow the older, pre-existing and more true to it's origins "version"... then we're dealing with something rather different.
<largo> I somewhat disregarded the validity of the lodge of england based on what I've studied.
<largo> considering that there are historical documents on freemasonry predating it's claim of the first lodge etc.
<largo> there was a lot of crap based on the politics of the time.
<largo> blah blah jacobites blah blah.
<largo> I can't recount it all right now.
<koden> i really just think it would be interesting if only people with blood lineage could join
<koden> i could dig that
<largo> essentially to avoid political persecution, they reinvented themselves to be more inline with the dominant politics of the time and claimed no assocition with, or validity of the previous lodges and made a concerted attempt to bury any evidence of them.
<koden> i just want to rule the world
<largo> hahaha
<koden> it would also be some sort of tangible relic of my lineage
<koden> i don't have any predominant ethnic make up, or regional make up to my lineage
<koden> the roots of my family have been in the america's since pre-revolution
<koden> and in california for atleast 4-5 generations on my fathers side

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that's pretty much it. just noticed that Carlo responded to my comments... sounds pissed. *sigh* I guess I'll read it and head to bed. I'm not in the mood to bicker right now.

gute nacht meine freunde.