Thursday, August 04, 2005

More bickering with Lisa and company...

Lisa can't seem to get it through her head that just because supposedly (see the bottom of this post for more on that) the majority of Canadians are against same sex marriage, that it still does not justify depriving those people of a basic right and respect granted heterosexual couples.

Her argument rests on the fact that if the majority of the people are against it, then it doesn't matter what the minority thinks... that seems to be her view of "Democracy".

I finally got sick of her ignoring all my data and points to solely focus on her terribly narrowminded, ignorant and flawed "argument", and decided to hopefully clarify to her exactly what I and others like Chris were referring to when we said that it was the right thing to do, regardless of whether or not the majority of Canadians were against same sex marriages. Based on the scientific facts that I've laid out in previous posts, the following should sum it up pretty succinctly.

A few points from Principles of Democracy: Majority Rule, Minority Rights:

On the surface, the principles of majority rule and the protection of individual and minority rights would seem contradictory. In fact, however, these principles are twin pillars holding up the very foundation of what we mean by democratic government.

Minorities -- whether as a result of ethnic background, religious belief, geographic location, income level, or simply as the losers in elections or political debate -- enjoy guaranteed basic human rights that no government, and no majority, elected or not, should remove.

Acceptance of ethnic and cultural groups that seem strange if not alien to the majority can represent one of the greatest challenges that any democratic government can face. But democracies recognize that diversity can be an enormous asset. They treat these differences in identity, culture, and values as a challenge that can strengthen and enrich them, not as a threat.

And in summary, a few links to consider. With a nod and a wink to Lisa. ;-)

Same-sex marriage bill must stand, "majority" says.

Canadians And Same Sex Marriage As The Supreme Court Of Canada Makes Its Ruling: 71% Support Concept, 27% Don’t.

As the Supreme Court of Canada issues its opinion on the federal government's legislation to legalize same-sex marriage today, a poll of Canadians finds that a full majority (71%) support the concept of same sex marriage. However, these Canadians are split in how they would like the union recognized: four in ten (39%) believe same-sex marriage should be “fully recognized and equal to conventional heterosexual marriages”, while and 32% believe it should “be allowed to exist in civil law but not have the same legal weight as a conventional marriage”. In the alternate, the poll found that only a minority of 27% believe that “it is wrong and should never be lawful”. Two percent “don’t know” which of these views they have on this issue.

I think that about sums it up.

/ / / /


Lisa said...


I wasn't using that as an argument to say why gays should not be married. That is a whole separate debate.

If I was addressing that, you may have found some more valid points. But I wasn't complaining about homosexuals or their lifestyle. I was complaing about the government.

I was commenting on the stupid lying idiots who sit around and "run" our country. I was annoyed at them for not listening to what people want, and for going back on what they said they would do (wait until the fall to vote on the bill). They rushed the billthrough all of the normal procedures, trying to get it passed on time. And the senate is just a stupid commitee of liberal buddies who are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to agree with their friends.

There are so many government reforms that need to take place. Elected senate, for one. But not jsut that. The (liberal) MP for a riding close to us, Richmond, was elected on the grounds of upholding the tradional definition of marriage. But then he votes for it in the government? Stuff like that should not happen.

That is why I was frusterated. That is what I was talking about. Government corruption, not gay marriage.

Phreadom said...

Did you even read anything I wrote? Because it doesn't seem like it. The stats show that not only is your premise false, but that even in light of your false pretenses, your argument is still moot because this falls into the category of simply being the right thing to do... to protect the basic human rights of a minority group regardless of minority status.

On top of that, the vast majority of Canadians do not want the issue raised again either. It's settled in a good way and they're happy about it. They want it left alone now. End of story.

This isn't about government corruption... it's about the government doing the right thing and protecting the freedom of BOTH the religious and the gay communities. Religions don't have to take any part in gay marriages, they don't have to condone them or anything... they have the right to their own beliefs... but the gay community also has the right to marriage just as straight people do. And that is where this does turn into an argument with you about homosexuality... because you refuse to admit that they have that right because (as you admitted and as the statistics I provided prove) your religious beliefs don't agree with their sexuality. It becomes an issue of you wanting to have your personal beliefs legislated onto other people because you do not agree with the scientific facts because a millenias old book tell you that homosexuality is an abomination in gods eyes. (just like shellfish. but far worse than rape, polygamy, adultery or child sacrifice or slavery or corporal punishment of your family which are simply belongings, because all these things are also written in the same book and just fine with god. mass genocide, terrorism by definition... killing rape victims as punishment for being raped... murdering witches because their religious beliefs differ from yours... enjoying slaughtering infants and smashing their brains out because they're the children of your enemies...)

You need to put things into perspective here. I don't see you advocating any of those other things I listed... why not? Those are also in the Bible. Gods word and all that.

Can you explain that to me?

Either show me some proof that the facts I listed and linked to in my post are heinously incorrect, or stop trying to say that this was something bad... it was the right thing to do and it was the will of the majority and the majority want it left that way now that it's finally done. And regardless of that, I still don't see any good reason not to attack your beliefs which are rather obviously flawed, irrational and contradictory. I'm not trying to be mean by saying that, I'm simply stating facts. You're just using the bible as an excuse to discriminate against people whom you don't understand and don't agree with. Picking and choosing which parts to acknowledge as they're convenient for you.

(Also remember the next time you're in church not to open your mouth. The bible says that you are to remain silent. And if you see any crippled people in the church, you'd better kick them out, because that's against the bible too. The exact same bible that you're using to justify your archaic and ignorant views of homosexuality, which I have been trying to remedy.)

I am trying to be nice about this... you're just being stubborn and apparently ignoring what I've written in the post and the information it links to. :-(