Friday, August 05, 2005

Yes, I'm polemic. :-) Accountability for Islam.

I was browsing Chris' blog again and noticed a comment from one of his readers, Herge Smith:
I was listening to Radio 4 yesterday, and I think it was Nick Clarke interviewing a Muslim group and he said something along the lines of 'Do you fear a backlash?', and this guy quite rightly answered, 'what do you mean, 'backlash', that implies that we had something to do with it in the first place."

If our media can't make a distiction, what chance does the common (and think) man and woman have.

Hello politically correct ignorance! :-D

YOU DID HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT. It was your idiotic religious beliefs that fueled this fire. You choose to be a part of, and promote, an archaic religion that promotes ignorance. This religious fervor and ignorance is what has been used primarily to fuel terrorism and conflict in the middle east, and now throughout the world. Justified resentment towards the United States for their imperialistic foreign policy is the other main ingredient... but we can't ignore the fact that ISLAM AS A RELIGION IS A VITAL AND FUNDAMENTAL INGREDIENT TO THE MAJORITY OF ALL TERRORIST ACTIVITY TODAY.

So, in fact you, AS A MUSLIM, DO share some responsibility for these actions.

For a little bit of background on the logic behind this, please read my previous post entitled "and while we're at it... yay religion! :-D". Please make sure to read the comments, as that is where the meat of the discussion is.

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chris said...

As a Christian (sort of) do I hold responsibility for that nun's death? Does Greg the hypothetical Jewish guy hold responcibility for the death of a bunch on Egyptian soldiers when the waters rushed back?

Hell, does my unborn child hold responsibilty for the deaths of Muslim men and boys at srebrenitza?

Fucked up people do horrible things. They can be persuasive, and corrupt other people into doing horrible things. They may have a banner behind them. They may not.

Its still the man that's the monster.

Phreadom said...


If you're a Christian (or Muslim), then you believe in an ideology based on ignorance. You promote the exact mindset that is the fundamental cause of these actions. Quit trying to make excuses.

Without the irrational belief in the supernatural and detachment from reality that religion provides, none of these things would have happened.

If you can't grasp that, that's your problem... but it doesn't mean that you're not part of the problem.

If I went around teaching that there was a giant invisible bunny rabbit that said that things like sacrificing your own children to him was ok, and then someone actually did it... would I not be partially at fault for that? If they honestly believed that I was telling the truth?

Tell me if those priests and nuns were actually monsters. They honestly believed, based on their religious beliefs, that they were doing the right thing. And how much do you want to bet that the nun in question was a willing participant?

Like I said... excuses. :-)

chris said...

in reverse order:

if you did "the bunny" thing I'd say you were a "fucked up person" that manipulated people for your own reasons and you were very responsible for the crime. A fucked up person with enough brains can corrupt anything - even bunnies.

I think its possible to ,lots people do, have a rational belief in something bigger than themselves. A great many physicists for example.

You have implied that religion is the only factor. I'd first point out that these things happen in the absence of religius motives - the cases of students walking into their schools and shooting dead classmates indiscriminantly, for example. This quickly destroys your position the "none" would have happened without religion.

Further I think general education, a person's level of poverty and discrimination, whether they feel disenfranchised or not - are all huge factors, the fact that current bombers act with the banner of Islam behind them is a coinsidence - that of an angry youth and of some nasty people with power.

Finally, I fail to see what is ignorant in MY ideology and I don't promote anything.

Phreadom said...

Big difference. I honestly believe in the possibility of something "greater than ourselves". It would be a little silly not to keep it in consideration. However, equating "the possibility of something greater than us." with "a man in the clouds as written in the Christian bible" is silly. They are extremely different things. Unfortunately most people can't make that distinction.

I believe I was referring to the cases mentioned, and about almost all modern terrorist activity is Muslim based. It would be silly to argue otherwise. (and please note that I said "almost all", as I am aware of "terrorist" acts that aren't, such as the Murrah Building etc.)

The fact that you can't see how islam has been used to fuel terrorism, and how religion in general stunts a persons objective, rational and critical thinking skills, then I'm sorry, but you are not only ignorant, but a bit lacking in those skills yourself.

I would say that more specifically, regarding the priests and the nun, which I've already covered, but you seem to still not grasp, is that if they hadn't honestly believed in all that superstitious religious nonsense, they wouldn't have believed that imaginary demons were possessing her... they wouldn't have believed in the imaginary sky god wanting them to do this to her, etc. These weren't maliscious acts, they honestly believed, based on the nonsense that religion taught them, that this was the good and right thing to do. This is the same mindset of the majority of terrorists and insurgents today. They believe that it is a crime against Islam to have infidels on their soil. They believe in fighting back and killing Christians or Jews if they need to. I think you need to do a little research on the subject. And sadly, this is all stuff that I've covered many times on this blog previously. About the only reason that not ALL of Islam is not behind Osama Bin Laden is because his bombings eventually targeted buildings that led to the deaths of many innocent people including other Muslims. His justifications for this went beyond what the Qur'an teaches and caused many Muslims to break solidarity with him.

I agree that socioeconomic factors play a fair part in these issues... but it's the magic bullet of believing in supernatural powers and primitive superstitions... that you'll get to go live in paradise etc etc if you die a martyr's death... when they actually BELIEVE that kind of thing, compared to the life they're living, it's worth it to them to serve Allah in defense of Islam as the Qur'an teaches.

Religious belief is self sustaining and self promoting. This is actually scientifically understood. When you associate what would normally be mundane things with a connection with God, this releases endorphins and such into your system which create a euphoric feeling like being in love etc. This feeling in turn in a sense justifies and reinforces the feelings that led to them, which are simply all in your head. You create a mental and physical addiction to a fantasy that is very hard to break.

I think you need to do a little more research and thinking. But thanks for taking the time to comment.